Nature of Consent

Spanking and Domestic Discipline
DisciplinedWife
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Nature of Consent

Post by DisciplinedWife » Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:36 am

In DD one or both partners give the other partner(s) the right to corporeally chastise them. However, one issue that arises is the nature of consent. Is the consent a blanket consent or are there conditions? If no conditions are mentioned, can some conditions be assumed?

In my case, DD flows from my marriage vows to love, honor and obey my husband. His first command, and something we had decided and mutually agreed before marriage, was that misdemeanour by me will result in corporal punishment. Accepting DD for me was a blanket consent as non-acceptance, in my opinion, contradicts a vow made before God.

The problem with this blanket consent is that it can denigrate to abuse. If my husband makes some offensive rule should I obey that? My vows say yes. But doing that can be acceptance of abuse and self-abnegation. Hence, I have identified a framework to analyze the issue.

1- The rule directly contradict the Word of God? In that case it is void as nothing can supersede the Word of God. Hence, I will not obey it and not feel bound to accept the consequences of disobedience. Any attempt to "discipline" me will lead to a fight and maybe divorce proceedings and abuse allegations.
2- The rule seems to be against my religious principles but I cannot directly refer to any lines from Scripture to repudiate it. In this case also, I will not obey it but I will feel bound to accept the consequences of disobedience. If I am punished, as I am likely to be, I will accept the chastisement. I will also try to convince my HoH about my point of view.
3- The rule is not directly repugnant to my religious principles but seems to be morally suspect. My reaction will be same as issue no. 2.
If the punishments continue for a long time for issues 2 and 3,I will feel that the HoH is behaving in an ungodly fashion by desecrating his vows to love, honor and cherish me. When I feel the same, I will no longer submit to the punishments and may file for divorce. I am likely to be pushed over the edge for issue 2 more quickly than issue 3.
4- The rule seems unnecessary or consequences are too strict. In this case I will try to obey it while trying to convince my HoH to change them.

In my marriage I have only faced issue 4. Mostly, I have got convinced about the need for the rule after some time.

WishingforDD
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Re: Nature of Consent

Post by WishingforDD » Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:47 pm

This is such a interesting subject. And I think it is one that should be revisited every now and then. Because without consent, this is abuse.

To me consent is only valid if it is given willingly and freely by someone who understands the fully what it entails.

I also believe that this will look differently for different couples. For some consent-nonconsent is real. But in those situations I think it is important to regularly revisit what the consent entails.

Let’s say the scenario is the TiH agreed to DD at marriage, wanted it even. They agree that he/she must submit to the rules and punishments of the HoH. After a while he/she feels that the HoH is not being fair. She/he wishes they make changes. She/he no longer wants to be spanked, or spanked that much. The HoH says, well you already gave consent in your vows. It’s either keep submitting or divorce. In this case, he/she isn’t consenting freely and willingly, it is under pressure. In that case I believe the consent is no longer valid.

I get that it isn’t always this straight forward, normally it isn’t. But as an example.

I look forward to reading more interpretations of consent.

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NateG
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Re: Nature of Consent

Post by NateG » Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:03 pm

DisciplinedWife,

I'm sure you were smart enough not to marry someone who would turn into an abuser in the first place. You appear to be a very religious woman, and I would assume your husband is also therefore?

I can't imagine him asking something too outlandish to be Contradictory to Gods Word. Right? But I understand you were listing things that were definite no-no's.

In my marriage, we have always used spanking to some extent. But when we formalized a DD relationship, I did write out an agreement as a short term test. However, it was pretty much a blanket statement. It covered what I expected and several possible consequences. She had only asked that I agree not to use soap to wash her mouth out and I was fine with that.

But I wouldn't want a lot of conditions set by my wife. I agree and encourage her to share her thoughts on things...rules, punishments and such. I want her to explain her thoughts on why she did something that might of gotten her in trouble. So I am not tyrannical in any way shape or form.

I believe that if you are in a DD relationship, even if it is not called that necessarily, that you already love and completely trust your spouse. If you need conditions or you don't trust him completely, then DD should't be on the table or marriage.

Seeing that you only faced #4 on your list, it appears that you don't have much to worry about. That is probably something most will face.

Just thoughts

Nate

Rand E
Posts: 343
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Re: Nature of Consent

Post by Rand E » Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:38 pm

DisciplinedWife wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:36 am
In DD one or both partners give the other partner(s) the right to corporeally chastise them. However, one issue that arises is the nature of consent. Is the consent a blanket consent or are there conditions? If no conditions are mentioned, can some conditions be assumed?

In my case, DD flows from my marriage vows to love, honor and obey my husband. His first command, and something we had decided and mutually agreed before marriage, was that misdemeanour by me will result in corporal punishment. Accepting DD for me was a blanket consent as non-acceptance, in my opinion, contradicts a vow made before God.

The problem with this blanket consent is that it can denigrate to abuse. If my husband makes some offensive rule should I obey that? My vows say yes. But doing that can be acceptance of abuse and self-abnegation. Hence, I have identified a framework to analyze the issue.

1- The rule directly contradict the Word of God? In that case it is void as nothing can supersede the Word of God. Hence, I will not obey it and not feel bound to accept the consequences of disobedience. Any attempt to "discipline" me will lead to a fight and maybe divorce proceedings and abuse allegations.
2- The rule seems to be against my religious principles but I cannot directly refer to any lines from Scripture to repudiate it. In this case also, I will not obey it but I will feel bound to accept the consequences of disobedience. If I am punished, as I am likely to be, I will accept the chastisement. I will also try to convince my HoH about my point of view.
3- The rule is not directly repugnant to my religious principles but seems to be morally suspect. My reaction will be same as issue no. 2.
If the punishments continue for a long time for issues 2 and 3,I will feel that the HoH is behaving in an ungodly fashion by desecrating his vows to love, honor and cherish me. When I feel the same, I will no longer submit to the punishments and may file for divorce. I am likely to be pushed over the edge for issue 2 more quickly than issue 3.
4- The rule seems unnecessary or consequences are too strict. In this case I will try to obey it while trying to convince my HoH to change them.

In my marriage I have only faced issue 4. Mostly, I have got convinced about the need for the rule after some time.
Since you and your spouse have a common Christian religious background, hold the same morals and values, and believe in the same traditions, it probably helps reduce the need to worry about issues of consent. That is, a lot of it is baked into the marital relationship from the start.

I'm Jewish, but I do feel that the same principal applies for my wife and me in that we have the benefit of the same moral and ethical foundation from a similar religious upbringing and a similar set of traditions.

But there may be numerous secular couples with little or no religious foundation who endeavor to practice DD and find that they do not have that benefit of a strong common foundation, leading to disagreements and disputes. Nobody is knocking the idea that it's good to be in complete sync with your spouse already, but a more neutral set of rules and procedures concerning how issues of consent should be handled are probably a good idea for many, if not most, couples.

Rand E
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Re: Nature of Consent

Post by Rand E » Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:56 pm

WishingforDD wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:47 pm
This is such a interesting subject. And I think it is one that should be revisited every now and then. Because without consent, this is abuse.

To me consent is only valid if it is given willingly and freely by someone who understands the fully what it entails.

I also believe that this will look differently for different couples. For some consent-nonconsent is real. But in those situations I think it is important to regularly revisit what the consent entails.

Let’s say the scenario is the TiH agreed to DD at marriage, wanted it even. They agree that he/she must submit to the rules and punishments of the HoH. After a while he/she feels that the HoH is not being fair. She/he wishes they make changes. She/he no longer wants to be spanked, or spanked that much. The HoH says, well you already gave consent in your vows. It’s either keep submitting or divorce. In this case, he/she isn’t consenting freely and willingly, it is under pressure. In that case I believe the consent is no longer valid.

I get that it isn’t always this straight forward, normally it isn’t. But as an example.

I look forward to reading more interpretations of consent.
I agree with you up to a point concerning the prior blanket consent involved in a DD relationship, and also the principal that no consent, even the blanket one in DD, is irrevocable. That is, you can give prior consent to avoid negotiations and the need for consent each time there is a disciplinary incident, but this does not mean that consent cannot be withdrawn at any time, again, not to a specific punishment, but more as to the DD arrangement as a whole.

I do not agree with you concerning your notion of freely given consent. It is not just with respect to DD consent that a husband or wife may threaten divorce. In fact, threats of divorce to induce a spouse to comply with a demand are a common occurrence. Just imagine a non-DD couple where one spouse says "I'm divorcing you because you never want to have sex with me and I'm not satisfied with a sexless marriage." Basically the same as saying "Have more sex with me and I will stay married to you."

You may consider people who exercise their right to get divorced because they are unhappy that their spouse doesn't cooperate with them in some manner may be terrible people, or perhaps not, but it does not invalidate the actions the spouse who was threatened with divorce takes (agree to continue DD, have more sex, whatever) to satisfy their spouse and thus stay married. It's a routine and common occurrence and, alas, just a fact of marital relations.

Rand E
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Re: Nature of Consent

Post by Rand E » Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:17 am

NateG wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:03 pm
DisciplinedWife,

I'm sure you were smart enough not to marry someone who would turn into an abuser in the first place. You appear to be a very religious woman, and I would assume your husband is also therefore?

I can't imagine him asking something too outlandish to be Contradictory to Gods Word. Right? But I understand you were listing things that were definite no-no's.

In my marriage, we have always used spanking to some extent. But when we formalized a DD relationship, I did write out an agreement as a short term test. However, it was pretty much a blanket statement. It covered what I expected and several possible consequences. She had only asked that I agree not to use soap to wash her mouth out and I was fine with that.

But I wouldn't want a lot of conditions set by my wife. I agree and encourage her to share her thoughts on things...rules, punishments and such. I want her to explain her thoughts on why she did something that might of gotten her in trouble. So I am not tyrannical in any way shape or form.

I believe that if you are in a DD relationship, even if it is not called that necessarily, that you already love and completely trust your spouse. If you need conditions or you don't trust him completely, then DD should't be on the table or marriage.

Seeing that you only faced #4 on your list, it appears that you don't have much to worry about. That is probably something most will face.

Just thoughts

Nate
I'm not sure that the specifics of the DD agreement really matter in the context of consent.

The couple may draft any set of rules or conditions, assuming they aren't illegal, and if the couple agree on it, then that's what they agree to. There may be things in one couples DD agreement that seem outlandish or unacceptable to other couples, but think back to the "bra" thread to see how what is considered legitimate or acceptable can vary?

The real issue is what happens when there is no longer agreement. Whatever the DD agreement was, it used to be consensual, but now one spouse has changed his/her mind and it is no longer consensual. The real question is whether you are willing to allow that one party to the DD agreement can withdraw from it by their own choice.

And, it doesn't do much good to qualify it by saying that withdrawal of consent can only be for "good" reasons. If you can't agree on the terms of the agreement, you may not be able to agree on what's a "valid" reason for withdrawing from it.

Just as a legal matter, you can't impute continuing consent once it has been clearly withdrawn just because it was previously agreed to, and I don't think it's a sound idea even from just an ethical or practical standpoint either.

Rand E
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Re: Nature of Consent

Post by Rand E » Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:35 am

Prior to DD, when I spanked my wife, or vice-versa, for erotic purposes, we were operating under a case-by-case consent, in that, it had to be clear that we were both up for it before it would happen. In effect, it was no different than having sex. You both have to be in the mood or it ain't going to happen. We also used safe words that were always in effect whenever we engaged in any spanking or kink. We used that common red/yellow/green system, except we changed "yellow" to "banana" at one point based on a Family Guy episode.

Obviously, DD is somewhat (or needs to be) different in that regard. The punishment is triggered by the rule break, and the rule break can happen at just about any time, and when it does, the culprit may or may not be in the mood for a spanking. And, when it comes to a serious DD spanking, you will probably never be in the mood for it unless you are a serious pain-junky.

So case-by-case consent just didn't work for us. We had originally started with the Spencer Plan notion that the spouse who committed the infraction volunteers or consents each time for the punishment. I have never had a chance to talk to other couples that tried the Spencer Plan, but that approach of approving each punishment worked so badly, I'm having trouble figuring out how it would ever work for anybody.

So, we had to change things at that point, and as much as I loved the cooperative concept embodied in Spencer, I had to take another look at the consent structure adopted by the traditional DD arrangements, such as on this forum.

Our solution was to adopt a new blanket level of consent along the lines of traditional DD arrangements, or more accurately, agree that there is a presumption of consent given in advance, until revoked, for all future disciplinary incidents. That is, it's not up to the dom to worry about whether the sub is okay with the discipline, or in the mood for it, each time it happens. It's always okay, absent the explicit withdrawal of consent, to proceed with discipline at the dom's discretion.

We had a discussion about safe words and the implications of not having safe words for DD punishments. That notion we both rejected. We kept the safe words, with some stipulations.

(1) The sub can use the yellow safe word to call for a pause if things are too intense. In normal use with erotic spanking or kink, yellow would mean to reduce the severity or number of strokes, whereas with DD, if you are sentenced to 10 full-force swats, you will get 10 full-force swats, even if it takes a while. BUT the dom should be very careful to consider whether the punishment is perhaps in fact too intense. We don't just blow off the yellow like it means nothing, even for a DD spanking.

(2) The sub can use the red safe word to end the immediate instance of the punishment. This will be treated as a withdrawal, perhaps only temporary but a withdrawal nonetheless, from the DD arrangement. That is, a withdrawal of the original DD prior consent. At that point, nothing further can happen until we discuss, re-negotiate, or otherwise adjust the rules or circumstances to re-start the DD arrangement and consent once again. However, there is a strong presumption that, once restarted, the original punishment will be completed as it would have been.

(3) If the use of safe words becomes frequent, especially red, during DD sessions, then a deeper review will be required. That is, if the sub is constantly calling red all the time and then trying to use it as a way to weasel out of punishment, then it's time to consider ending the DD arrangement as not working. In effect, that sort of behavior is really just another way of saying I'm not up for this anymore at all. I would never divorce my wife if she opted out of the arrangement altogether, but if you have a need for a DD marriage and your spouse won't agree, then it's not illegitimate to divorce and find a spouse who will.

So, we retained but re-purposed the safe words a bit. I'm happy to say neither of us have used the safe words in regard to DD. It may seem counter-intuitive to some of you, but for us, we both feel a powerful incentive never to use the safe words in a DD context, and I think we both have handled pain levels that I would not have thought possible without tapping out or even pausing. Nevertheless, I think the availability of the safe words has helped ensure that we are keeping the intensity at a safe and appropriate level.

WishingforDD
Posts: 28
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Re: Nature of Consent

Post by WishingforDD » Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:57 am

Rand E wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:56 pm
WishingforDD wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:47 pm
This is such a interesting subject. And I think it is one that should be revisited every now and then. Because without consent, this is abuse.

To me consent is only valid if it is given willingly and freely by someone who understands the fully what it entails.

I also believe that this will look differently for different couples. For some consent-nonconsent is real. But in those situations I think it is important to regularly revisit what the consent entails.

Let’s say the scenario is the TiH agreed to DD at marriage, wanted it even. They agree that he/she must submit to the rules and punishments of the HoH. After a while he/she feels that the HoH is not being fair. She/he wishes they make changes. She/he no longer wants to be spanked, or spanked that much. The HoH says, well you already gave consent in your vows. It’s either keep submitting or divorce. In this case, he/she isn’t consenting freely and willingly, it is under pressure. In that case I believe the consent is no longer valid.

I get that it isn’t always this straight forward, normally it isn’t. But as an example.

I look forward to reading more interpretations of consent.
I agree with you up to a point concerning the prior blanket consent involved in a DD relationship, and also the principal that no consent, even the blanket one in DD, is irrevocable. That is, you can give prior consent to avoid negotiations and the need for consent each time there is a disciplinary incident, but this does not mean that consent cannot be withdrawn at any time, again, not to a specific punishment, but more as to the DD arrangement as a whole.

I do not agree with you concerning your notion of freely given consent. It is not just with respect to DD consent that a husband or wife may threaten divorce. In fact, threats of divorce to induce a spouse to comply with a demand are a common occurrence. Just imagine a non-DD couple where one spouse says "I'm divorcing you because you never want to have sex with me and I'm not satisfied with a sexless marriage." Basically the same as saying "Have more sex with me and I will stay married to you."

You may consider people who exercise their right to get divorced because they are unhappy that their spouse doesn't cooperate with them in some manner may be terrible people, or perhaps not, but it does not invalidate the actions the spouse who was threatened with divorce takes (agree to continue DD, have more sex, whatever) to satisfy their spouse and thus stay married. It's a routine and common occurrence and, alas, just a fact of marital relations.
Good points. I both agree and disagree with you there. I probably worded myself oversimplified. I believe more context can change this situation.
By talking you might understand each other, and end up agreeing because you actually agree. But if you are just giving consent because you know you’re partner will leave, I don’t really think the consent is freely given. Plus I don’t think it will do good for anybody, you don’t really achieve what you want if your partner is only letting you punish because he/she is afraid you’ll leave, Or that he/she is having sex with you just to keep you.

It is perfectly fine to leave a relationship for whatever reason, be it lack of sex or too hard punishment.

It’s a lot about how this is conducted. And obviously it is ok to talk about your need and wants. Example, I am not happy in our relationship because there is too little intimacy. Is there anything we can do?
Or: if you don’t have more sex with me, I will leave you!

Rand E
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Re: Nature of Consent

Post by Rand E » Wed Jan 22, 2020 7:22 am

WishingforDD wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:57 am
It is perfectly fine to leave a relationship for whatever reason, be it lack of sex or too hard punishment.

It’s a lot about how this is conducted. And obviously it is ok to talk about your need and wants. Example, I am not happy in our relationship because there is too little intimacy. Is there anything we can do?
Or: if you don’t have more sex with me, I will leave you!
When you mentioned the importance of how the relationship is conducted, it got me to thinking about one of the most important aspects driving this discussion thread, mentioned by you and others posting here. Perhaps the most important aspect is the length and strength of the marriage. My wife and I have been married 25+ years, raised 2 kids together, and have been through a lot of ups and downs together. We love each other deeply and have a strong marital bond. I think that's a big success factor for a DD arrangement. A DD arrangement won't make a marriage work. A strong marriage is needed to make DD work. Long-term married folks with a rock solid marriage may tend to take that for granted.

One of the things that attracted me in the first place about this forum is that it has so many long-term couples that have achieved that sort of love, commitment, and trust. Even though my wife and I have safe words, and discussed and negotiated a DD agreement, deep down I realized that we really don't need the safe words or some wordy formal agreement, because of how we feel toward each other, and how we can practically read each other like a book without even speaking. There is an implicit assumption that fills in every blank, so to speak: I trust you and I submit to you, the love of my life, completely, to do the right thing, the caring, loving, nurturing thing, for us, and for our family.

For new DD couples, new both in the sense of adopting DD, but also with respect to the marriage itself, I would be inclined to take it a bit more slowly and carefully. That's where I agree with the usual DD advice that a more formal written agreement that considers the consent aspect explicitly is a good idea, as well as an effort to recognize and consider the potential pitfalls. I will admit that my wife and I don't even have a written DD agreement, so I'm kind of in the awkward position of endorsing advice that we don't even follow. But we thought about it, and we both felt that we just didn't need it to make this work.

But when it comes to marriage, everybody is at their most starry-eyed, and with few exceptions, at their most naive and vulnerable, in those first few romantic years, particularly younger folks. My wfie and I got married at the age of 21, classic college sweethearts. Over the subsequent years, my wife and I basically grew up and grew in maturity together as we grew our marital relationship. If we were adopting a DD lifestyle back at that time, it would have made sense to spend a lot more time hashing out the details and getting on the same page, especially as to matters of consent. Even then, I sometimes wonder if we would have had the maturity and dedication to make this work as who we were then, versus who we are now.

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Sassyclouds
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Re: Nature of Consent

Post by Sassyclouds » Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:34 am

This was a great thread. I think, very helpful to everyone. I love and trusted my husband completely. We were married almost 17 yrs with 2 kids, when he finally agreed to try DD. Unfortunately, in my case, non of that mattered. He changed. DD, D/s, BDSM, really changed my husband. DD is dangerous if your HOH becomes abusive. I don't think revoking my consent to having DD in our marriage, just the physical punishments/spankings, would have mattered to my husband. I tried to tell him I no longer consented. He just said you consented in the beginning and that's all that matters.
I had a marriage with DD. I definitely want that again, if I ever get married again. The closeness and secure feeling in DD was wonderful. The love and respect is amplified after a discipline spanking.... I miss it. I miss having an HOH to help me.

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